Old Krag ammo

[butlersrangers]

I recently bought a bag of 14 rounds of old .30-40 ammo. It was a mix of U.M.C. .30 U.S.A. and U.S.C. Co. 30 GOV. rounds that came out of a Spaulding web belt.

When I got home and looked at the cartridges carefully, I found 12 of the 14 rounds had split necks. Only two cartridges were intact.

Since I could pull some of the rounds apart with just finger pressure, I took a few apart to weigh and measure the FMJ bullets. I also weighed the charges of the tubular powder (I.D. - unknown to me).

FWIW - The UMC bullets weighed 219.2 to 219.7 grains and measured .309" diameter. The powder charges averaged 38.5 grains.

The U.S.C. bullets weighed 220.5 grains and measured .309" diameter. The powder charges were averaging around 34 grains.

Both brands of cartridges seemed to have the same propellant. The tubular grains were shorter than the IMR powders I am use to. The powder grains gave a strange mixed gray and charcoal appearance, depending how the light hit them.

Does anyone know if this is Laflin & Rand "WA .30" powder?

The bullet bases varied between makers. The UMC projectiles have sharp edges. The USC bullet bases show a bevel at the edge.

I believe the UMC rounds date from 1911 (or earlier) and the USC Co. rounds date from 1927 (or earlier).

I am toying with scraping the rounds with cracked necks and using just the projectiles.

[psteinmayer]

Well, my guess is that you have Laflin & Rand powder there, my friend! I've taken apart a few of my old FA rounds (with cracked necks, easily pulled apart with fingers) and the powder looks identical. I would bet that even the ones without cracked necks were not actually fit to shoot (although about 10 years ago, I did use the powder and bullet from one once to load into a new brass, and it fired just fine). My guess about the powder weights is that it's from degradation... as they should have started out at 40 grains.

I have several pieces of the UMC .30 USA and U.S.C Co .30 GOV brass. I haven't used them with my match ammo... but I did use some with my cast bullet loads. Of course, they were all fine with no cracks.

[butlersrangers]

I had no intent with these cartridges except to keep them as collectables.

But with the neck cracked rounds, I see no harm in just using the projectiles to duplicate some original 220 grain loads at the range.

Thanks for the observations on the powder.

[reincarnated]

Phil Sharpe's 1937 Opus "Complete Guide to Handloading" has detailed descriptions of most of those old powders, grain size, color, etc. If you don't have it, there are e-copies on the net.

[madsenshooter]

They didn't always use 40gr of powder. The charge would vary some for different lots of the powder. Whatever it took to get standard velocity when loaded into a given lot of cases, without going overpressure. Get some Graf's brass and have some fun with the bullets, maybe the powder too.

[JimmyK]

Those bullets look like they are cupro nickel clad. Bullet makers switched to gilding metal to avoid the fouling issues cupro nickel bullets presented. Before sending those bullets down range, Google cupro nickel fouling. Good luck.

[madsenshooter]

The cupro nickle wasn't such a big problem with the Krag. When it was used in the 06 at higher velocities however....

[KWK]

They didn't always use 40gr of powder.

Even for the early military loads this was true. At google books one can read several of the Army Ordnance Reports from the 1890s. Frankford was testing loads from under 30 gr to well over 40 gr, depending on the powder and lot. Peyton was the principle powder loaded until that powder plant in California blew up. I think WA replaced it eventually, probably about 1899.

I imagine commercial loads from after WW-I likely used the earliest IMR powders. Whelen praised them in his book written during the war--a book also available at google. Pre-war loads might have been WA, or they might have been MR, or some other powder yet. Whelen's book gives some of the kernel dimensions as well as loads for several powders.

[KWK]

Looking back over your original post, I see you said the powders appeared to be the same. Looking at the descriptions in Whelen's book and comparing to your photo, the powder is likely WA. The grains of WA were .08" diameter and .04-.05" long. All the MR and IMR powders then were relatively thin, like the more "modern" 4064 and 3031.

One odd thing is the charge weights you have. Whelen said 36.2 gr was already producing 40000 with the 220. The smaller load you have would be closer to 2000 fps from 30" and likely under that speed.

For the 1920's cartridges, the use of WA also seems odd. Whelen considered WA thoroughly obsolete in 1918, being erosive (which Frankford reported back in the 1890s) and rather inflexible with bullet weight.