Winchester 30 Army Full Patch

[butlersrangers]

FWIW - 'Reincarnated's' post makes mention of ammo, (Ball Round), with W.R.A. 30 head-stamp and nickel alloy primer cup.

Jeremy has indicated the "30" is likely a year date and his box is dated 8-30. (Maybe everything is correct).

Western Cartridge Company introduced "Lubaloy" copper alloy jackets in the 1920s. A December, 1929, American Rifleman add makes mention of Lubaloy Palma ammo.

I don't have any old .30-40 commercial ammo, but, here's an empty 'Western' box (non-corrosive primers) and probably an earlier box that touts 'non-fouling' Lubaloy bullet.

[Jeremy T Garner]

Where was the W located on the projectile? I'm assuming it would be on the base and would be willing to pull one down for the sake of history and science! :) Scouring through other forums, cartridges of the world volumes, and auctions the "8-30" on the bottom right of the top label definitely indicates month and year of manufacture. Just as reincarnated stated I was expecting a headstamp bearing WRA Co. and was surprised to just see WRA. The 30 on the cartridge from all of my research also is a year of manufacture so the box and cases are at least from the same year but who knows if they actually belong together. I would certainly love to know. Pulling a bullet and posting pics of the bullet and powder may help?

[butlersrangers]

FWIW:
Various references I have read today confirm the use of "W.R.A. 30" and "W.R.A. 31" as a Winchester cartridge head-stamp in 1930 and 1931.

Winchester introduced "Staynless" primers around 1929. They superseded the "NF" (non-fulminate) primer, "which was somewhat copper in color", according to one collecting source. I assume the 'Staynless primer' may have been silver in color (?).

In the 1920s, Winchester began using a Lubaloy (copper) plating on lead bullets, (while Western Cartridge Co. was also using that term on copper jacketed bullets).

I don't know if Winchester had adopted copper jacketed bullets by 1930.

The Western Cartridge Company purchased a bankrupt Winchester R. A. Company on 12-22-1931.

It would be real interesting to see the base of one of Jeremy's bullets to see if it is marked with a "W".

[reincarnated]

The "w" is not on the base of the pre-1932 Winchester bullets. It is stamped on the side in a very small font. Must have done wonders for accuracy. If there is a cannelure, the letter is forward of the cannelure.

[Jeremy T Garner]

Yeah I'm sure that really helped out in the accuracy department! ;) The projectile does have a cannelure and I will investigate further when I get home from work. If it is small font and I can capture it on camera visibly I will do my best to put up the photo for all to see.

[reincarnated]

I went back to WRACo Vol 1 again. There are line drawings of the 220 grain FMJ bullet seated in a Krag case. The drawing shows the crimp in the bullet cannelure and the tiny "w" visible just above the cannelure. The round nose of the bullet does not, to my elderly eyes, quite match the bullet in the photo and I also have very minor doubts about the copper-colored bullet. I looked at WRACo loaded cartridges in my collection (other calibers) and the "w" is visible.

All the Winchester labels came from the Winchester art department. There is a product number on each. My understanding is that the "8-30" on the label is a date showing when that particular label was approved for use by the Winchester bureaucracy. We can infer that the box went into the Winchester product distribution system after that date. It may or may not tell us much about the age of the contents.

W R A (no dots) and a 2-digit year code was specified as the headstamp for Winchester cases made for a government contract. I think it is possible that the WRA 30 cases loaded for a late Navy contract would go into a box like that, especially since Frankford Arsenal was loading Subcaliber cases at the same time. FA used the M-1 bullets for the .30-06 because they had used up all the Krag and .30-03 bullets in stock and would make no more.

Those boxes of Western Cartridge Company 180 grain boat-tailed bullets are very interesting. They are from the post WW1 to pre-WW2 period when long range military style shooting was in vogue. WRACo loaded the same sort of load, but their labels indicate that the loaded cartridge is too long for a Krag magazine and is intended to be single-loaded. I expect that there were rifles purpose-built, and maybe not Krags, for that cartridge.

[butlersrangers]

After Western bought Winchester in December, 1931, did they still produce ammo under the Winchester name?

I saw a picture of a Box of the special .30-06 ('single load only') ammo with copper jacketed bullets. I assumed it was simply too long to feed through the Model 54 Winchester's magazine and was intended for long range 'slow fire'.

IIRC - The model 54 was manufactured from 1925 to 1930.

[Jeremy T Garner]

There is no "w" visible on any of the 20 cartridges that I can find. Their is consistent tarnishing on both the cases and projectiles. If these are in fact reloads as Paul suggested they were well done, as everything is very uniform, and quite long ago. That is very interesting information about the headstamp! I appreciate you spending the time and effort looking it up! The knowledge and kindness on this forum is absolutely amazing. I'm a student of history and love to revel in its wisdom. I'm only 30 years old (started collecting pretty young lol) and am really trying to keep the traditions of these rifles alive. If these things could only talk and tell us where they've been :)

[psteinmayer]

This has all been so very interesting... and forces us to research, which only serves to educate us further! I Love it!!!

As for the cartridges, I concede that they may be original, but I'm still skeptical based on the lack of a "W" on the bullet... and those flat primers. Some US military rounds even as recent as the 1960s still had the cupped-shaped primers (I have some HXP M2 Ball dated 1962 with rounded/cupped primers). I just don't know when flat primers started appearing. Other than that, they sure do look old, so if they are reloads, they were loaded a long time ago...

Time for more research!

[reincarnated]

I've opened WRACo Vol 1 again. There were .30-03 military (or at least FMJ) loads without the "w" because the illustration shows a sample with & without. There was also (missed it before) a separate section on .30 U.S.G. loads, yet another name for the Krag cartridge. The illustration shows a military cartridge without the "w" but with a CN (cupro-nickle) notation in the description.

The .30 U.S.G. entry notes that Navy contracts for W.R.A.Co. 29 and W.R.A. (with dots) 32 headstamps were for blank cartridges with a cannelure at the neck to hold a tan card wad.

The .30 Army entry indicates that FP (full patch) bullets were loaded and that some of the loads were GM (gilding metal) and that some did not have a "w" and were loaded with flat brass primer.

They manufactured components in lots or batches, with enough for whatever contract they were filling and then had leftovers. The WRACo type headstamps appeared until the mid-1960s, depending on what was in the component bins.

Jeremy- if most of them could talk, they would tell you that it is pretty boring being in the closet, attic or basement for years.